Second Sight

[Seamus]

I'm wondering if any games out there allot players additional merit points for these characters?

The Base 7 Merit points are there, and I allot an additional 3 MP for being supernatural (To allow for a more rounded character and allow specifics to their race on top of mortal). But the Psychic Powers/Low Magic are technically merits, so this brings my question. Should I allot more MP to them to allow them to purchase a decent power or several lesser?

[Whirlwind]

If you're trying to keep things "fair" (huge mega-qualifying quotes there) relative to mundane folks, then they should have to buy their funky powers with points out of their own pocket.

If the basic idea is to have them as the baseline, then I'd say give them enough extra MP to actually buy their tricks.

[miss adventure]

Depends on where you want players to start? You might want to say that X merit points have to be spent on one power, to givew everyone a strong ability, or you could just say you get X and Y merits automatically like the Psychic Powers or Low Magic Merit being free.

[Cobalt]

If we're talking about nWoD,

Thaumaturges get their defining path merit for free already.


At Darkwater we don't give people more merit points, but we do give everyone 35-45 XP.



However, the psychic powers are really a mess when it comes to levels and requirements.  You could in theory give people on free merit at the lowest level of it that is the base requirement for all of the other powers in that category.

For example you have to have Mind Reading 5 to take Thought Projection, and you have to have thought projection to take telepathic communication, etc.   The levels are ridiculously high and expensive for what you get.

Another option would be instead of giving more merit points is to go with simple merit progression.  Say when you buy a merit that has a fixed level you buy that level (so something like Doodadd 5 which has no intervening levels you only pay out 10xp, instead of 30).

[Seamus]

I remember TM talking about this debate that they had on Victorian, about the merit costs.

Wouldn't that exponentially unbalance their 'meager' powers compared to the more 'uber' powers of the true supers?

[Thenomain]

Here's a breakdown I just did for TCO of the various psychic merits.  Note these are total costs for a merit, and ignore that you get other merits in the bargain.  I'm presenting it this way to better compare to equivalent major template abilities.

I have no conclusions to draw from this.  I'll leave that to the rest of you.

edit: added all other merits involved in that cost

ESP

Astral Projection •••: 24 xp [Clairvoyance]
Clairvoyance •••: 12 xp
Dowsing •: 14 xp [Clairvoyance or Chanelling]
Dream Travel • to •••••: 56 xp to 84 xp [Astral Projection, Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Postcognition • or •••: 4 xp or 12 xp [Precognition]
Precognition ••••: 20 xp
Psychometry ••• or ••••: 12 xp or 20 xp

MEDIUMIST

Automatic Writing ••: 6 xp
Channelling •••: 12 xp or 24 xp [Ghost-Calling for ghost channelling.]
Death Sight ••••: 20 xp
Ghost-Calling •••: 12 xp

PSYCHOKINETIC

Biokinesis • to •••••: 2 xp to 30 xp
Cryokinesis • to •••••: 2 xp to 30 xp for merit. 2 xp to 170 xp with attributes
Plant Empathy •: 4 xp [Biokinesis]
Psychic Healing ••• or •••••: 24 xp, 42 xp or 60 xp (prereqs make this one look odd) [Biokinesis]
Psychic Vampirism •••• or •••••: 40 xp or 60 xp [Biokinesis]
Pryokinesis •••••: 30 xp
Pyrokinetic Immunity •• or ••••: 36 xp or 50 xp [Pyrokinesis]
Pyrokinetic Shaping •••••: 60 xp [Pyrokinetic Immunity, Pyrokinesis]
Telekinesis • to •••••: 2 xp to 30 xp
Thermokinesis • to •••••: 2 xp to 30 xp for merit, 2 xp to 170 xp with attributes

TELEPATHIC

Animal Empathy •• or ••••: 6 xp or 20 xp
Animal Possession ••••: 26 xp or 40 xp [Animal Empathy]
Animal Rapport ••• to •••••: 12 xp to 30 xp for merit, 21 xp to 39 xp with skill
Aura Reading •• or •••••: 6 xp or 30 xp
Mental Blast •••••: 80 xp [Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Mind Breaker •••••: 80 xp [Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Mind Control •••••: 30 xp
Mind Reading ••• to •••••: 12 xp to 30 xp
Psychic Empathy •••• or •••••: 68 xp or 78 xp [Aura Reading, Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Psychic Illusions •••••: 120 xp [Mind Control, Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Psychic Invisibility •••••: 120 xp [Mind Control, Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Telepathic Communication ••••: 70 xp [Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Telepathic Rapport •••: 80 xp [Telepathic Communication, Mind Reading, Thought Projection]
Thought Projection ••• or ••••: 42 xp or 50 xp [Mind Reading]

[Cobalt]

*sobs into her hands at the telepathic merits*

[Gattaca]

Holy crap! 120 xp for some powers.

I now see what everyone is talking about. That is insane. Has anyone commented on this on the official ww forums? Was this really the developers intent?

[Byrtnoth1]

I know in Geist they took steps to specifically say that Ceremonies, which are paid for with merit dots, cost dots x 2 outside of chargen, and that you do not pay for intervening levels, right?

[Thenomain]

It sounds like Ceremonies fall under the "direct purchase" system mainly used in Werewolf, and some in Changeling.  Direct purchase only works for binary powers: You have it or you don't.  If you look at psychic merits more closely, you'll find more than a few that use the intervening levels.  (Cryo/Thermo are the most obvious, but any with an intervening level counts.)

The 120 xp does give you a total of four 5-dot merits.  There's no 1:1 correlation between nWoD power sets, but converting the costs to total XP gives you an idea how this minor template compares to major templates.

[HelloRaptor]

The levels are ridiculously high and expensive for what you get.

I wish I had an appropriately sardonic lolcat for this.

[miss adventure]

It seems odd to me. I get that they are trying to reinforce the idea that compared to almost everything else, psychic powers are ridiculously hard to achieve. Still, I would prefer something, anything, to make the xp costs in particular closer to other power sets, which is to view xps as a sort of "right to be capable" which in turn is equitably handled.

Perhaps some sort of milestone system to augment the storyline acquisition of powers paired with a cheaper cost?

[Thenomain]

So let's compare this to WoD's expectations.  This is the xp level chart that White Wolf is using:

0-34 (Beginner)
35-74 (Seasoned)
75-119 (Established)
120-179 (Veteran)
180+ (Legend)

At 120 xp, you're a veteran (level 4 out of 5) or a legend (5 out of 5).  For 120 xp you can have the chance to: Turn invisible, read thoughts, change thoughts, communicate telepathically.

Maybe it's not psionics that are too powerful, but thaumaturgical rituals are too cheap.  (I'm not going to argue about Cryo/Thermokinesis.  That power simply doesn't work with anything approaching internal consistency.)

Or maybe all that's needed is giving psychics an equal boost as the thaumaturges get: Choose a category, get 4 free merit points for it, +1 on all rolls in it or let the psychics do extended rolls up to the level of the power.  The latter would take some closer look at the powers, but I'm not convinced that the power levels in Second Sight are the problem.

[Gattaca]

I thought about this today in a strictly xp for power fashion.
I do not have my books with me to see what these powers do, but it has been said that for 120xp you get 4 x 5 dot power like merits.

To buy 4 x 5 dot powers would run 240xp (I think).
To buy 4 x 5 dot related manifestations of one power (say changelings elemental contract with 4 different elements) would be 150xp.

The only difference I see here is that for a major super template you auto start with dots in powers, but for psychics you do not.

My solution if I wanted a psychic heavy game would be to let them start with a certain amount of power dots (in merits or whatever) for free.

[Thenomain]

Merit Cost Breakdown:

•     2 xp
••    6 xp
•••   12 xp
••••  20 xp
••••• 30 xp

4 5-dot merits = 4 x 30 = 120 xp.

Affinity Contracts (the cheapest of the powers) are 4xp per level.  That's 60 xp for a level-5 power, but you get five powers in the bargain.  To closer compare, you'd need to buy five psychic merits, one of each level, for a total of 70 xp.  (For vampires, it's 75 xp for a cheap level-5 power.)

This starts falling apart, however, in that no major template has this level of prerequisite between power sets.  The closest might be Mage, where you're spending ton of xp to raise your Gnosis for the privilege to raise an Arcana, but once you have it your range of potential is much broader than any other game's.